009 MATERIAL MURAL
LIVE INTERVIEW WITH BEN SLOAT
recorded on
www.facebook.com/LOLWOWSOS/
December 13, 2019
Thrilled to learn more about “Material Mural,” a new laser-etched work by photographer Ben Sloat, currently on display in the exhibit “When Artists Enter the Factories” at Brooklyn Army Factory. Here, Ben Sloat will share his experiences and thoughts pertaining to the conception and realization of this impressive mural!
LOL/WOW/SOS: Hi Ben, thank you for participating in this conversation on LOL/WOW/ SOS! Your new work, “Material Mural,” looks very impressive on the photographs! We would be grateful if you could describe the work in detail (size, materials, construction, surface quality etc.). Further, could you please describe the production process of this work. Looking forward to learning more about “Material Mural.”
Ben Sloat: "Material Mural" is 16 ft long by 8 ft tall. It's made from 30+ panels of laser-etched drywall, meant to consider the wall not as a neutral surface, but one that itself can be materialized and spatialized. This piece also plays with considerations of what an image is. Here it responds to the optics of the Brooklyn Army Terminal where it's installed. This was once a set of factories during the World Wars, and one of the largest buildings in the U.S.
LOL/WOW/SOS: Thank you Ben! The exhibition, which aims to highlight the relationship/separation between manufacturing and art-making takes place in the Brooklyn Army terminal. This building, according to the exhibition statement, is “a former US military supply base, which is one of the most innovative and accessible manufacturing campuses in New York City.” In this context, the technique and the manufacturing become an important aspect. It is not the first time that you are working with laser and have an artwork manufactured in multiple pieces, but this time I feel that it is different. The scale is much larger than your previous laser-cut works, the work is etched and not cut, and you chose to work with a modest material that usually isn’t etched. Please tell us more about this shift in your practice and the techniques employed. I am curious to know where the work was manufactured; by how many people, and how long it took to create this installation from idea to finished artwork? Using the etching technique on drywall panels (gypsum backed by sheets of paper) is an innovative and daring proposition by the fact that the paper surface would burn but the interior gypsum would prevent it from taking fire. Were you looking to have chance and the thought of fire enter as a component of the work? How were you able to control this aspect, did you perform tests? I am looking forward to learning more about “Material Wall.”
Ben Sloat: I made all the work myself since we have a really nice laser cutter/engraver at Lesley now. There are a lot of variables here: the type of drywall used, the intensity of the laser, the overall scale, etc. This last aspect was determined by the space I was given to install my work, and the bed of the laser is 24"x30", so that's a functional constraint to work within. Using a series of panels seemed like the right solution, but it did take a very long time to test and then fabricate. Each panel can take up to 75 minutes to laser etch and there are 30 panels! Overall, I'm curious about the wall itself, how it can be comforting or excluding, it can determine both interior and exterior architecture, and it can have a cultural capacity as well as a civic or political one. Overall, I wanted the wall to be the site and material of an artwork, not simply a passive structure to hold an artwork.
I did consider fire as a theme, perhaps in terms of Yves Klein's fire paintings, but issues of space and material were far more present.
LOL/WOW/SOS: Thank you for describing the production process, materials, and for sharing your thoughts. The juxtaposition of the drywall material with the idea/symbolism of the wall intrigues me. In architecture, the wall is, of course, always a subject of discussion. More often than not, the way walls are treated and built tells something significant about the cultural and political climate, when and where they were built. For instance, in mid-century modern architecture, the presence of large spans of glass combined with free floor plans reflects a desire for openness, expansion, and change. On the other hand, heavy medieval castle walls, which kept some people out and some locked in, tell a story of fear, conflict, and protectionism. In art, the wall is a place where art is displayed temporarily but could also be a place where the human hand, either through painting or carving, leaves a mark directly on its surface, an oeuvre that could stay in place for millennia. Here, I feel the desire to leave a permanent mark through the means of etching. On the other hand, the wall that you are doing this on is made in sheetrock and the joints between the panels are imitating the layering of stone walls. This light material, which became very popular in America after the second world war, is used for interior partitions in both homes and commercial spaces. Usually, when walls are referred to in art, literature, and history, they refer to structural walls like the wall behind the scene in Eduoard Manet’s “The Execution of Maximillian,” the prison walls in “Le Mur” by Jean-Paul Sartre, or in a real geographic architectural context, the Chinese Wall, Berlin Wall, or the border wall between Mexico and the US. Your treatment of the wall is different. Could it be that the walls of today are actually interior walls found in homes and in corporate and government office spaces all over America? I would be curious to know how you think of the drywall in this work.
The fact that the drywall material is cut into pieces, etched, and then assembled makes me think of other artists that have “attacked” interior surfaces as an act of rebellion, such as Hans Hacke and Gordon Matta-Clark. At the 1993 Venice Biennale, Hacke made the installation “Germania” at the German Pavilion. Here, Hacke smashed the marble floor tiles which the Nazi’s installed in 1938, and left all the shattered pieces on the floor. On the other hand, Gordon Matta-Clark’s oeuvre consisted of the openings and apertures that he cut into walls and floors of buildings scheduled for demolition. He also took photographs of wall graffiti work, painted on these photographs, and exhibited them. Similarly, I feel that there is a component of rebellion in “Material Wall.” Could you please tell us more about your thoughts pertaining to cutting down the drywall panels, etching them, revealing the white core of the material, and finally the reassembling the panel, as a wall, in an exhibition context. Do you perceive this work as rebellious?
Ben Sloat: Part of my interest in the wall is how it becomes a site of tremendous power exchange. The Berlin Wall, for example, during its time of use had one side of the wall which was cultural, where one could express themselves over the injustice of its presence; the other side of the wall was militarized, a deadly site of denial. Now it functions as a kind of material history, which informs artworks like Haacke's "der bevölkerung" installation. In gentrified areas, the exterior walls often remain the same while the hidden interior walls support a new, gentrified population which appreciates the exterior patina. In so many instances, the wall is a site of dispute, even if it doesn't represent a national border.
Ben Sloat: Here the walls are cosmetic, not structural. They hide, but also become a new site. Drywall is a fascinating material for me since it's so cheap, easily transformed, and modular. Plus, it's materially made out of gypsum powder and a paper backing, and becomes transformed into a kind of uniformity. I'm not sure I think of the pieces as rebellious, more about a kind of visual and material revelation. Two Gordon Matta-Clark quotes I certainly thought about here were "the cut as a functional construct" and "to reveal the establishment of a universal surface," but I also thought about the Dostoyevsky quote: "the wall has a calming, morally absolving, final quality."
LOL/WOW/SOS: The idea of the wall as a site for power exchange is fascinating. Thank you for further explaining the role of the assembled wall in your work and for highlighting the link to Hacke’s “Der Bevölkerung.” I appreciate the quote of Dostoyevsky and for highlighting the calming quality of the finished wall. To first dismantle something, act on it, and then create a new whole is something common in architecture, but here I wonder if it also speaks about the medium of photography? The brightness of each individual panel varies which results in a beautiful flickering quality to the wall, as if the images on the panels would soon change into something else. How do you the perceive the link between the images, the panels, and the medium of photography? In my mind I try to bridge the gap between the cuts in the drywall, the image, and the architecture of the building. The photograph is of the courtyard, which is a giant void/negative space/light well in the building, while the image is created by lines that have been carved out with a laser cutter. I wonder if the shared components here are the negative spaces (the voids) and the light (natural and laser)? Could you please tell us more about your thoughts pertaining to the photo of the courtyard and why you chose to display an image of the building itself?
Ben Sloat: These are great questions – my first perspective on photography is that I find the "object-ness" of photography too passive and dematerialized. It's amazing to me that the intimacy, tactility, and exhilaration of recording the world is completely dispersed in the photographic print. Through many projects I feel I've been trying to push the photographic past the print as the only artistic conclusion. In earlier projects I've used neon, light interactions with architecture, found cultural imagery, etc. as a photographic material.
Part of what's happening in this piece is that the imagery changes significantly depending on the viewer's position. Up close, the visuals are quite abstracted and appear as half-tone details. When the viewer steps back, the images unfold and appear. This elusive and transformative image quality is very interesting to me, and pushes against the stability and singularity of conventional photographic images. I appreciate what you call "the voids" and the return to the surface quality of the drywall itself, how the laser rendered the quality of light on the surface I found very exciting. Here's an example of that phenomenon:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B3kGL0XlA6F/ The image of the Terminal I found online, it's taken at elevation, so it's somewhat different than what the passersby would see. As in the past, I very much enjoy engaging with visuals that have one set of familiarities, then exploring new elements that might exist within. Perhaps it's a kind of "re-familiarizing" or a common jumping-off point for new engagements. This projection installation from the Virginia MFA last year had a similar context: an animated historical map of Richmond, VA that showed how redlining and discriminatory policies have crafted the contemporary city: https://www.facebook.com/bsloat/videos/10155977812392951/
LOL/WOW/SOS: Thank you so much for explaining your thoughts on photography. I truly enjoy that your work is bridging the gap between the immaterial quality of the photograph and the real tactile and material world. In a sense, I find that your work, by reinserting itself in real space, makes the experience and the mechanisms of the real world most evident. When you plan an installation, do you start with the site or do have a concept and look for a site afterward? Do you foresee installing “Material Wall” in a different context? How would the meaning of “Material Wall” change if it were installed in a gallery or a museum?
In an essay by Boris Groys called “Politics of Installation,” he writes that “the installation transforms the empty, neutral, public space into an individual artwork – and it invites the visitor to experience this space as the holistic, totalizing space of an artwork. Anything included in such a space becomes part of the artwork simply because it is placed inside this space.” Further, he claims that “the artistic installation is thus a space for unconcealment,” it is a place where the artist has freedom to express himself/herself freely without the constraints or censorship of institutions or the market. In addition, when an artist makes installations, he/she has the total control of the space and it is meant to be experienced here and now. In contrast, a photograph, when it is exhibited as a print, becomes an object which is nomadic/ meandering by nature. The same occurs with photographs on-line, which turns into images that can show up anywhere, in any context. Do you ever think of your installations as a democratic act, like a space where the artist has freedom of expression and control over how the work is viewed?
In your answers above, you describe that you have explored photography through the means of “neon, light interactions with architecture, and found cultural imagery.” How do you foresee your practice developing? Do you have a “dream project”? If you like to share, it would also be interesting to know about any forthcoming installations or exhibitions that you have in your plans. Looking forward to your answers. Many thanks for participating in this interview.
Ben Sloat: A museum setting would be ideal for this work in a number of ways. I very much agree that an installation can be an immersive, liberated space. Seeing certain installations in person, like those by Olafur Eilliason, Cardiff/Miller or Yayoi Kusama, have certainly confirmed this. Ideally, a museum is a series of immersive experiences, since the museum's own architecture plays such a large role in defining one's movements and sightlines through a show. Yes, it would certainly be a dream to have a large-scale museum show of the work, especially at a place which already has a strong material/industrial relationship, like Mass MoCA. In the short-term, "Material Mural" will be exhibited in Brooklyn for an extended presentation. Part of me is eager to de-install it and spend time with it, since it was fabricated and immediately installed, so I'd like to "see" it on my own terms. It might be interesting to re-install it at a different site, but I do very much like responding to the specifics of a location, and enjoy the decisions made during fabrication.
I see my practice unfolding in a variety of ways, and it's great to look back at projects and see connections I hadn't seen before. When an artist gives a talk, often their work seems so unified and in a logical progression, but I wonder how much of that clarity is found retroactively. In terms of immediate next steps, I'm heading to Asia in February and may develop some projects there. Ten years ago, I did a photo series for my Fulbright project in southern Taiwan where my mother is from, and I'm curious to see that location again and witness further changes.
LOL/WOW/SOS: Thank you, Ben for sharing your thoughts on your installation “Material Mural” currently on view at Brooklyn Army Factory. It has been very instructive and inspiring to learn about the conceptual ideas behind the work, the complex fabrication, and your future plans. Without doubt, the work would look excellent in a museum setting such as Mass MoCA!
To learn more about Ben Sloat’s art installations and photography you are invited to consult: